Category Archives: An Interview with an Afghan Tribal Chief

Interview w/Tribal Chief #11: Pakistan, continued

By Steven Pressfield | Published: December 18, 2009

SP: Chief Zazai, last week we were talking about Pakistan and you said there were in fact four Pakistans: the bureaucrats who are always in power, the current elected government, the army, and finally what you called the “Shadowy government” of ex-ISI and army officers who exert tremendous unseen influence.

This week let’s get local and focus on your home district, the Zazi Valley in Paktia province in Afghanistan, where you are the paramount chief of eleven Pashtun tribes. You have said in previous interviews that within your valley, well-known to all residents, are a number of agents and officials who “have been on the payroll of the Pakistani ISI for thirty years.” Can you tell us more about these men? What is their agenda? Are they supporting the Taliban and other insurgents?

Chief Zazai, second from right, with bodyguards on the way to meet British commanders in Kabul earlier this year

Chief Zazai: The Zazi valley has tremendous strategic significance because it lies on the porous border with Pakistan’s Kurm Agency, Tirah Orakzai and Waziristan. It is located on the southeast corner of the Tora Bora Mountains. During the Russian occupation, Zazi was called the “Gateway to Afghanistan” and still holds this unique position. Many insurgents cross back and forth almost daily and unfortunately within the Zazi valley the Taliban have some die-hard sympathizers as well as some who are there to facilitate their movements within the valley and around. Strategically, Zazi has been kept fairly quiet and not a war zone because this is the gate–and if the gate gets the heat, there will be a deployment of more U.S. troops in Zazi which means the gates will be shut.

I formed the TPF (Tribal Police Force) in June ‘09. Initially I needed to protect my chiefs while they were busy campaigning to unite all the tribes in Zazi, Danda Pathan and in Khost because in the same day three innocent local tribesmen were beheaded by Taliban fighters, including a religious scholar who denounced suicide bombings as un-Islamic. The next day people found the scholar beheaded and his eyes were taken out and his ears were cut in the corridor of his house. Then there was a shooting involving the Border Police soldiers, which resulted in three dead and 4 injured. Later the Mullah of that particular village refused to give these soldiers a religious burial. These events sent us an alarming sign, so therefore I immediately appointed a veteran leader, Amir Mohammad, to be our security head and ordered a group of 30 armed men to start protecting the chiefs and the Unity movement. As threats grew, we increased the number. We now have 85 armed Zazi tribesmen serving and protecting their own people. Amir Mohammad and the senior officers of the Tribal Police Force have survived two IED attacks and many ambushes. So, to answer your question, who are these insurgents? Are they coming from Pakistan or are they living within the Zazi Valley?

These insurgents are living within the Zazi Valley. We have identified their commanders and members and they are not more than 35 men. Can one imagine that only 35 men are intimidating the lives of over 250,000 people?

SP: So then you actually know who these individuals are?

Chief Zazai: My Commander, Amir Mohammad, has provided a list and locations of these insurgents to the commanding officer of the U.S. 10^th Mountain Division based in Ali Khell in the Zazi Valley. So far we have not heard that they have arrested or questioned these men.

In the Zazi Valley, there are four Pakistani nationals who are based there now and have been for many, many years. They have been lately spotted by our Intel guys filming the U.S. troops when they move around and are busy collecting intelligence about everything. One is a medical doctor, the other is a medicine man (a seller of homeopathic medicine), the other is a Mullah (this man speaks openly against the U.S. and all Infidels), and the fourth one is attached to the medical doctor and is just there.

Yes, there are a few Local Zazi men who have been in the payroll of the Shadowy government of Pakistan (ISI) for almost thirty years and two of these men are warlords. They hold high political office in the current government. They are in positions of trust. The Pakistani Shadowy ISI government and these Afghan warlords do not want to see the tribes–meaning the local village people–become united with the U.S. Army in the fight against the Taliban insurgents, because they are too well aware that if this happens, this will be the end of Taliban and insurgents in Afghanistan. That’s why they are against my Tribal Police Force program and will do anything to dissolve it and stop it.

SP: How do the local people in Zazi feel about these men that you say have been on the payroll of the Pakistani ISI? Has anything been done to bring charges against them or to drive them out? If not, why not?

Chief Zazai: It is not a problem for the Zazi Tribal Council to simply drive these men out of the Valley, but so far–on the contrary–people are trying to drive us out! I will not name names in this public forum, but let’s just say that these forces have been able to convince certain well-meaning and hard-working but unfortunately misinformed U.S. officers that they are the good guys and have painted our Zazi tribesmen as the opposite. The U.S. is the power on the ground and unfortunately these shadowy forces have been able so far to manipulate this power.

SP: What is your opinion of American policy toward Pakistan in general? If you could advise President Obama on how best to deal with Pakistan from the point of view of resolving the conflict in Afghanistan, what would you tell him?

Chief Zazai: Bring Pakistan to become honest in their dealings with the world.

SP: I’d like to ask you about the Quetta Shura Taliban. Quetta, as we know, is a city in Pakistan–and a major sanctuary for Afghan insurgents. What exactly is the Quetta Shura? Is it being protected by the Pakistani government and if so, why?

Chief Zazai: The Quetta Shura is the supreme command of the entire Mullah Omar Taliban movement. But let’s not here mix the structure of the insurgents with their leadership. To understand the insurgents’ structure, we have to pay serious attention to the players and groups involved, who might share a single agenda as it pertains to fighting the U.S. and NATO forces in Afghanistan, but who also have their own separate and conflicting future agendas and designs. The overall Taliban body is composed of Mullah Omar’s movement (in other words, the Quetta Shura), the Hezb-i-Islami movement of warlord Gulbuddin Hekmatyar, and al-Qaeda. Some people would argue that AQ and the Taliban are separate, but I believe Taliban and AQ are like a soul and the body. There is also the Haqqani network which, though it enjoys deep contacts and relations with the Shadowy Pakistani government of the ISI and is very powerful and active within Afghanistan, is still under the leadership of Mullah Omar. Haqqani headquarters are based inside Pakistani soil. Mr. Sarajuddin Haqqani enjoyed great friendship with the late Taliban commander Baitullah Mehsud [killed recently in a U.S. drone attack] and I believe still enjoys the friendship and backing of his successor, Hakimullah Mehsud.

The Quetta Shura is fully protected by the Shadowy Pakistani government of the ISI. I think nowadays we hear this on the news all over that even though the Pakistani Army is fighting insurgent groups in Waziristan that they are only fighting the Pakistani Taliban and not the Afghan Taliban. So it is clear that these Afghan Taliban (Mullah Omar’s movement and al-Qaeda) are protected and supported by the Shadowy Pakistani government of the ISI.

Why are they not shutting these headquarters down? Well, as I have said earlier, the Shadowy government of Pakistan has its agenda and designs. I believe the U.S. and all NATO countries should seriously come to the bottom of this double-standard policy. I believe through meaningful dialogue with the heads of the Pakistani Army and former Pakistani Army generals this matter could be resolved more fruitfully.

There certainly is not a location or a signboard that says “Mullah Mohammad Omar’s Quetta Shura Headquarters.” I believe their meeting places are secret locations, as they change their tempo based on the day to day situation and affairs. Therefore I do not believe anyone would guess where exactly the Quetta Shura is located. Is it inside Quetta, is it in Karachi, is it in Peshawar, is it in Islamabad or is it inside Afghanistan?

Posted in An Interview with an Afghan Tribal Chief | 5 Comments

Interview w/Tribal Chief #10: Pakistan

By Steven Pressfield | Published: December 11, 2009

SP: Chief Zazai, I’d like to talk to you today on the subject of Pakistan. More than any other aspect of the Afghan conflict, I think, the subject of Pakistani involvement is confusing to Americans. Even extremely well-versed observers ask, “Whose side is Pakistan on?” You, more than anyone I know, are in a position to really “tell it like it is.” So let me ask you first, what do you think is the Pakistani agenda in the current Afghan conflict? What does the government of Pakistan want?

Chief Zazai, right, during the 90s, with his father, Chief Azfal Khan Zazai, and his father's bodyguard

Chief Zazai: When you talk about the government of Pakistan, do you mean 1) the Bureaucrats, 2) the Elected Government, 3) the Army or 4) the Shadowy powerful invisible government? In Pakistan a few governments exist. First, the bureaucrats who are there no matter who comes into power; then the elected government; then the Army government, which is most superior and above all which comes and goes whenever they feel like; and finally the Shadowy government of former ISI officers and some former Army Generals whom you do not see but surely feel their presence.

If you take all four Pakistani governments (which function simultaneously), I believe their single agenda would be the survival of Pakistan as a country. Pakistan has one enemy and that is India. Unless India and Pakistan come to the point where they can free themselves of the Cold War mentality and enmity with each other, things will be tense in the region for many years to come.

In respect to Afghanistan, I believe the first three Pakistani governments would wish for a peaceful and friendly Afghanistan with more Pakistani influence. But the shadowy government, which has its own agenda and designs, would go a few steps further by continuing to operate their proxies (insurgents) in order to keep Afghanistan destabilized and weak. I believe the Shadowy Pakistani government also wishes to see less or even no Indian influence and interference in Afghanistan and of course it wishes to see a large share given to the anti-Indian Taliban in the Afghan government.

SP: I have heard Pakistan described as “an army in search of a state.” Do you think there’s any truth to that? Perhaps more specifically, what is the role of Pakistan’s intelligence service, the ISI, in the overall government of Pakistan? Why is this one branch so powerful?

Chief Zazai: Let’s put it this way, the ISI is an institution which runs Pakistan. No one should doubt the ability and the power the ISI has. I believe it is the region’s most superior intelligence agency. The ISI enjoyed a large portion of the $28 billion that came in from the West during the 80’s in support of the Afghan resistance to the Soviets. Throughout this period they have advanced their abilities and training.

I do not believe there is any truth to the phrase, “an Army in search of a State.” Pakistani institutions are all functioning well; the Army is strong and in control. I believe Pakistan can not survive without its Army either. The Shadowy government might be in alliance with the Army but that contact would be limited to a number of individuals and not the entire Pakistani Army.

One might ask, if the Shadowy government is not entirely supported by the Pakistani Army, then where do they get their support? There is no solid evidence to back this claim, but there are many reports that Iran, Russia and China are pouring a lot of money into this Shadowy government to support the Taliban in Afghanistan. If this is true, it means the problem is much wider. It is a regional issue.

Chief Zazai in anti-Soviet days

Afghanistan has been always the center of the so-called “Great Game.” I strongly believe the Great Game is on now. One should be smart enough to play the game right, which means the US and NATO are now fully in the great game. If they play it wrong, they will lose and if they play it smart they will win, it’s that simple!

SP: Let’s revisit recent history for a moment, to help us understand how we got to where we are today. During the mujahideen era, the Pakistani government and the ISI were America’s allies in helping to funnel arms and money to the Afghan fighters (including yourself and your father) who were resisting the Soviet occupation. The ISI in essence created the Taliban, did they not? How did we get from then to now?

Chief Zazai: I want to clear one thing up here that is neither I nor my father ever got a single bullet or a single dollar from the ISI. My father always refused to contact or get involved with the ISI from day one (1980) due to his personal views. Most of the arms our men had were captured from the Russians and from the Afghan Communists, plus my father was receiving some cash on a regular basis from most Afghan businessmen in Afghanistan and his friends in the West in order to continue the fight against the Red Army. My father and myself were never in the payroll of the ISI. This fact is clear like the shining sun to every Afghan who knows my father and myself. That was one reason my father could not expand the tribal unity beyond Zazi Valley.

SP: My apologies, Chief Zazai. You and I are still getting to know each other!

Chief Zazai: Of course the Taliban were created by the Shadowy Pakistani government (ISI). Even President Karzai was part of the Taliban movement in their initial days.

When the Red Army was defeated, Washington turned its back on Afghanistan and Pakistan and left everyone in the cold to freeze! I guess that did not impress Pakistan in general.

Chief Zazai in custody of the Pakistani government

SP: Chief Zazai, you yourself were imprisoned by the ISI in Pakistan for two and a half years, without any charges ever being brought. Can you tell us briefly the story behind this? How do you feel about this experience? Has it left you embittered and an enemy of Pakistan?

Chief Zazai: When people say, “There is neither friend nor foe in politics,” the living example can be seen in Pakistan. I am not an enemy of Pakistan and never have been. Our campaign in 1997 (my father’s and mine) was to start a resistance in Afghanistan against the brutal regime of Taliban, not against the Pakistani governments. But because the shadowy government in Pakistan was embedded with the Taliban regime in Afghanistan, it did not allow us to go any further. Most Pakistani politicians including the present President Asif Ali Zardari have been imprisoned at one time or another, sometimes for years, on countless charges. Now he is the president of his country and ruling the same government that once put him in prison! I do not think he is to take revenge on Pakistan nor is he an enemy of Pakistan.

The people of Pakistan are peace-loving and very friendly people. I have many Pakistani friends and family. I believe there is a rift within its Army in regard to these insurgents (Taliban), as many Pakistani Army Generals including General Kiyani want to put an end to this nonsense in Waziristan, Bara, Tirah Orakzai Agency and the Khyber & Mommand Agencies. But again the shadowy government is far stronger and more powerful than one could imagine and the Shadowy government would do anything to protect its proxies.

My father’s agenda and mine during the late 90s was to start an uprising against the Taliban regime in three South Eastern Provinces (Paktia, Paktika & Khost). In order to do so we needed to organize armed groups within the provinces and take charge of affairs on the district level. An incident happened in 1997 in which four Taliban members, including one Taliban commander, were killed in Paktia by my father’s commander. This sent alarming waves to the Taliban leadership and to the shadowy Pakistani government, which are the die hard supporters of that Taliban. Later that year my father’s commander was killed along with six of his fighters in Paktia in a trap set by the Taliban.

The Shadowy Pakistani government did not allow any movement against the Taliban within Pakistani soil. Our biggest disadvantage was that we had no choice but to use Pakistani soil to gain support in order to carry out operations within Afghanistan. That was not a move which could be tolerated by the Pakistani Shadowy government of ISI.

Prior to my arrest, a few of my father’s close friends and allies were also imprisoned. They were snatched from their homes and were taken to undisclosed locations and held there for months. Their families were unaware of their whereabouts but when their whereabouts were found, all three were charged with terrorism.

I was the liaison between London and my father. I was snatched too from my family home in Peshawar and put in prison with false charges to bring pressure on my father to stop the movement. They accused us of working for the Northern Alliance. I was denied a trial and kept in prison until 2001. All the charges were dropped against me and I was set free in early 2002 as I was no longer a threat.

In my opinion, prison is a learning experience. I learned a lot and read a lot and I believe prison is the only institution where one learns all by himself. As my father used to tell me that “An iron needs a lot of fire to become a good sword.” I am not happy that I was in prison, but I learned a lot about life, politics and how to survive in a very tense environment full of pressures. I am glad it’s over!

[This discussion ran longer than anticipated, so we'll break it into two parts and publish the second one next week. To be continued: our interview with Chief Ajmal Khan Zazai on the subject of Pakistan and how its actions and policies affect the current situation in Afghanistan. See you next Friday!]

Interview w/Tribal Chief #9: Thoughts on Corruption

By Steven Pressfield | Published: December 4, 2009

SP: Chief Zazai, I’d love to get your take today on the subject of corruption, because so much has been written about it recently in the American press–that cleaning up the Karzai government has become a major priority of the new Obama plan, that benchmarks will now be enforced and so on. The Western media have reported that corruption is simply a part of Afghan life, that it can never be eradicated. What do you say to this? Is it true? Is there a tribal component to corruption?

Chief Zazai: Corruption is something that would never be tolerated by the tribes in a tribal leader. The Afghan code of honor (Nanawatai, Melmastia & Badal) are not just three words. If you look deeply into the tribal structure, corruption is a dirty word and those who take bribes or are involved in underhanded doings are labeled as “Reshwat Khoor,” which is an ugly label. A tribal chief gets elected because his father was a good man and his grandfather and people in the tribe believe he would be a good man. But if an elected tribal chief starts stealing money and is involved in other criminal activities, before he even realizes it, he gets voted out and is replaced by someone else. He is also labeled as a corrupt man and no one respects him anymore.

SP: The tribes of course are separate from the central government. What is happening in the Karzai administration? Can you put it in historical context for us?

Chief Zazai: What’s happening today in the Karzai government is another story entirely. It is completely unacceptable. Afghanistan has gone through many turbulences in the past. Afghan history is written with blood, but from the days of the late King Nadir Khan, corruption has not been a primary feature. Nadir Khan reformed Afghanistan and brought peace and stability to the entire country. His son King Mohammad Zahir Shah ruled Afghanistan honorably for 40 years, and after him Sardar Mohammad Daoud Khan worked day and night to develop Afghanistan and corruption was not seen at all as he was a tough guy and many of his cabinet ministers were afraid of him personally. Even when the Afghan Communists toppled Sardar Mohammad Daoud Khan’s government, they too were against corruption. But, when the Najibullah regime fell in 1992 and the so-called Mujahideen (meaning the warlords) took Kabul and started fighting each other for control of the country, then the corruption era started in earnest. Ever since, this menace is stuck on the forehead of the Afghan nation.

SP: Where did the Taliban fit into this?

Chief Zazai: When the Taliban seized power in 1995 and took Kabul in 1996, they also were very much against corruption in general. But their top men, including Mullah Mohammad Omar, were heavily involved in the drug trade. From their point of view, they did not believe that exporting drugs out of Afghanistan was any form of corruption, which is why they were openly taxing any kind of drugs which were being exported! But the Taliban did kill the day-to-day corruption in their administration, which is an open secret and everyone knows this too well. After the 2001 U.S. intervention in Afghanistan, the same brutal warlords were restored to power and the mother of all kinds of corruption became empowered and received the tacit backing of the West because they had made the bet to sponsor these warlords and to include them in the government. That is why corruption has flourished and now is beyond control.

SP: One of the most egregious examples of corruption that we read about in the press is Hamid Karzai’s brother, who is widely reported to be involved in the drug trade. Can you give us any inside insights on this? If we were sitting down with Karzai and he were talking straight, how do you think he would defend this arrangement?

Chief Zazai: I love America, you know why? Because every criminal has a right to defend himself! Even John Gotti and Al Capone had the chances! Let me tell you something, Karzai and his brothers and his entire Noorzai Mafia know America too well, inside out, and they have always said this openly and loud on BBC, CNN and of course on Al Jazeera. So, I guess it is time that the United States of America proves that Karzai and his brothers along with his Noorzai gang are heavily involved in the drug trade, the land mafia, kickbacks and many large construction contracts. It is time for America to teach some hard lessons to these little boys that they cannot always get away with such crimes. Karzai has openly on Afghan TV defended his brother by accusing the NATO and U.S. Coalition top officers of being involved in smuggling drugs out of Afghanistan themselves. It’s like an accusing game, you accuse me and I will turn around and accuse you and this will continue forever!

SP: The most pernicious form of corruption is when officials, whose role it is to protect the people, instead use their positions of power to exploit the people. How widespread is this sort of abuse in Afghanistan? What forms does it take?

Chief Zazai: This might take many chapters to cover, but let me explain where the main corruption is taking place and where this really starts. We have the government corrupt officials and we have the NGO or white collar corrupt staff.

First, the Government Officials. This starts right from the top men, for example, the Minister of the Interior is getting ready to appoint a Provincial Police Chief for a key province, meaning a province that is ripe for exploitation–one which is more developed commercially and has more population or dominates one of the main import routes from Pakistan, Iran & Central Asia. What happens? Usually the minister would only appoint a person who can pay from half a million to a million U.S. dollars to obtain this key lucrative position. When the individual pays such amount to the Interior Minister and gets the job, from day one his main objective is to make back the money he paid as a bribe to the minister and make two and three times more for himself. Now the pressure “rolls downhill” to the district police chief and that’s how the whole system gets polluted. Anyone who can pay will get away with any crime in the district, provincial and capital level, which means every crime has its price and these brokers wear the uniforms of police, whose sworn constitutional duty is to protect the people, but in this case their real job is to rob the people and steal from them using the police power. So, the corruption in this case is from top to bottom, and maybe the minister might be giving a share of the loot to the President, his immediate family or his agents.

The second big kind of corruption is white-collar or NGO [Non-Governmental Agency] corrupt officials or staff. Every contract given to a private construction company comes with a price tag. Ten, fifteen, twenty and in some cases 25% is paid up front to the person who has the authority to give these contracts to companies and the company who gets awarded pays the above percentages to that particular official. This practice is very common and it is done the way that it is almost legal and it is okay to do. Then the company who got the contract with paying the 25% up front sells the same contract to another company for 5 or 10% profit and makes the second company the subcontractor. The subcontractor then turns around and sells the same contract to another company for 5% or 10% profit and makes that company as a sub-subcontractor. In some cases it is even worse, in that almost 60% is paid in kickbacks and the final contractor is left with only 40% to complete the job! How the hell can anyone build a building with 40% left over and expect to make a profit as well?

A few years ago, USAID was trying to build 250 BHUs (Basic Health Units) around Afghanistan. The initial fund to build such BHUs was $250,000 per BHU. Later USAID found that only $25,000 was spent per BHU! In each BHU $225,000 was taken by the contractors! Can you imagine the extent of corruption? It is absolutely unbearable and if things continue the way they are, it is going to be impossible to succeed in Afghanistan.

SP: Can you talk about the emotional effect such abuses of power have on regular everyday people? Does witnessing such corruption drive them to consider siding with the Taliban?

Chief Zazai: Yes. I think when a person cannot earn a loaf of bread, while he is witnessing all this injustice by government officials and corrupt NGO, U.N. staff and so forth, then I believe it is only human for a father or head of the family to go anywhere where he could earn something for his family and kids. A tiny corrupt minority takes advantage of these vast amounts of money while the majority doesn’t get a fraction of it. I think this is an encouraging situation for many to join the Taliban to fight for something which they believe is rightfully theirs.

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Interview w/Tribal Chief #8: Is Time Running Out?

By Steven Pressfield | Published: November 27, 2009

[The blog is taking Thanksgiving off; we'll repost last week's interview below.

[On this day of gratitude, though, I want to offer a major thank-you to our weekly series contributors, Chief Ajmal Khan Zazai and Maj. Jim Gant; thanks to everyone who has logged onto the blog, circulated it and linked to it; and special thanks to all who have contributed to the Comments section. Many of the comments have been so insightful and so brilliantly-articulated (we've had input from troopers in the field, from veterans of all theaters and every war back to WWII; we've heard from officers who served with the Montagnards and Pashtun warriors who fought the Russians and many more) that I'm trying to figure a way to translate the best stuff off the Comments boxes, which are sort of like the interior pages of a newspaper, and move it out onto the "front page," where it's more visible. We'll start Monday with a special post and do it again from time to time when the occasion prompts it.

[Again, thanks to everyone who has visited the site. The experience of running this blog has been an education for me for the past six months. I hope the work here is of interest and of use. Happy Thanksgiving!]

SP: Chief Zazai, we hear every day in the American press that things are “going wrong,” “getting worse,” “we are losing.” Even in one of your recent e-mails to me, you said “time is running out, things are going more wrong.” Can you give us some specifics? What exactly is “going wrong?” Why is “time running out?”

Chief Zazai: Let’s start with the type of regime that the West, with all good intentions, has helped to set up in Afghanistan. I think it is clear that the kind of democracy which we see now has failed in a large way. The reason, I believe, is that democracy should not be limited to the act of casting votes, but should be a way of life that brings light into people’s lives and hearts. Democracy should bring education, better living conditions, clean and uncorrupted government, a future for the next generations and the opportunity for equal rights. But in Afghanistan unfortunately, democracy has brought corruption, warlordism, gangsterism, lawlessness, poverty and devastation. That’s why the people of Afghanistan are fed up with the present situation.

Things went wrong in 2002 when the warlords were empowered. At that time, in order for the Karzai government to maintain the illusion (for the eyes of the West) that it possessed the legitimacy of votes, it made the cynical decision to ally with the warlords. These powerful men who controlled whole provinces could bring in the votes. In return, their power was protected by making them part of the government, giving them jobs as cabinet ministers. In a way, you can’t blame Karzai. He had to satisfy the West’s need to make a government that looked like a democracy and he did. It had the votes of a democracy, but it didn’t have the honesty and good care for the people.

The reason time is running out is we have got an illegitimate regime in Kabul on our plate. We have a severe insurgency and this is all very serious and each factor has links to the other, meaning fixing the insurgency would not be possible without winning the hearts and minds of the Afghan people. But to do this, the international community needs to help establish clean and uncorrupted central and provincial governments. Without addressing the government issue, it will be impossible to win the hearts and minds of the Afghans and that in turn means difficulties in tackling the insurgency issue. I think it is clear to us all that time and patience on both sides are running out. The American public is getting fed up and the Afghans as well, I think it is about time we do something positive on both ends.

SP: In the last few weeks, I’ve discussed “tribal engagement strategy” with Major Jim Gant on this blog. Many have asked where to go with this in the future, and if a tribal engagement strategy is the complete answer or a piece of the puzzle. The tribes are all different, and we know there isn’t a one-size-fits-all strategy. As an example, the Awakening in Iraq is often discussed, as something for Afghanistan, but the structure in Afghanistan is different. How can this be accomplished?

Chief Zazai: The expansion of tribal re-integration needs to start first in each individual tribe. Meaning every tribe needs to start the process of unity among themselves. Once the process is completed among one tribe, then it needs to go from one tribe to another and another. This way if in a province you have 12 or 13 tribes, they all need first to be united. Once they have signed a treaty among themselves, they will all create a Provincial Unity. Once provincial unity has been completed, it is possible to expand that from a province to a province.

SP: I know you have been championing Afghan Tribal Unity for years, as your father did before you. Can you spell out your vision for how this empowerment could expand country-wide? Do you envision a tribal-centric government, as opposed to the warlord-centric government of Hamid Karzai? What would this look like? Would there be a parliament? Would it need U.S. troops to serve as “honest brokers?”

Chief Zazai: Absolutely, without a national Tribal unity this whole process is useless as this is not just about one tribe dominating all the country as we have seen in the last eight years, where one district is dominating the whole country. I see a greater role for the tribes to play by bringing stability to the whole of Afghanistan. In my views there is no such thing as a “tribal-centric government.” What I strongly believe in is giving the chance to the real representatives of the Afghans to make it to the Parliament, Senate, Provincial Councils, District Councils and Village Councils. Throughout Afghan history, many governments had the support and backing of the tribes but that didn’t necessarily mean that all the Tribal chiefs became Ministers or Governors. But yes, I would strongly urge that the real representatives of the Afghan people and tribes should be in the Parliament, Senate, Provincial Councils, District Councils and village councils to be included in the process of building the nation and bringing and maintaining security. The United States of America’s role is always welcomed by the Afghan people. I would like to see U.S. troops contributing toward implementing this historic cause.

SP: American policymakers are skeptical, as you well know, that a tribal confederacy could work in any form. They believe that the tribes cannot unite; they will always be fighting among themselves. What would you say to that?

Chief Zazai: Here we need to study the Afghan tribes more carefully and not think of them as Indians, Arabs, or even Central Asians. Afghans are a unique people with a unique history. The Afghan code of honor is a strong law that still exists in many parts of the country, that is, Nanawatai, Melmastia and Badal [codes of mercy, hospitality and the obligation of revenge.]

Afghanistan is made up of many tribes and these tribes have lived side by side for centuries and never felt that they are not Afghans. In the past thirty years, since the Soviet invasion, unfortunate events took place where power-hungry men used these tribes for their own personal advantage and made them fight for their own private gain. But I believe that black era has passed. Now many Afghans–Tajiks, Hazaras, Pashtuns, Pashais, Aimaqis, Balouchis, Turkmens and Uzbeks–are all thinking they are Afghans and their home is Afghanistan. We still do have these warlords in the Parliament, Senate, Provincial councils and in the Karzai cabinet who created this division among the Afghan tribes and used them to fight each other back in the 90s. But if the U.S. can gain an understanding of this situation and help the people to clean it up, I promise you this very worry will be gone forever.

SP: Chief Zazai, I know that you, and your father before you, have believed that not only the Pashtun tribes can unite, but that they can unite with the Tajiks, Uzbeks, Hazaras and others. But haven’t these groups been rivals forever? Why would they unite now?

Chief Zazai: Afghanistan is not the home of only the Pashtuns or Hazaras, it is the house and native land of all the tribes I have mentioned above. I will give you my home province as an example:

In Paktia we have 13 districts and many Pashtun tribes such as Mangal, Zazi, Zadran, Subaree, Zormat, Ahmadzai, Tota Khell, but in the heart of Paktia’s provincial capital we have Tajiks! Now, do you really think we (the Pashtuns) can exclude the Tajiks of Gardez from our day-to-day life? No way, they are part of us and we are part of them! That’s how the whole of Afghanistan is in the same situation, every province has mixed populations and they all live side by side and, like it or not, they have to live together and it is rather best to be friends than enemies!

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An Interview with an Afghan Tribal Chief, Part #1

By Steven Pressfield | Published: November 13, 2009

Chief Zazai, right, with his father, Chief Raiss Afzal Khan Zazi and his bodyguard, both murdered in 2000

[The blog is out of town this week. Here is a re-boot of our first post in this ongoing series. See you Monday!]

This will be the first of a multi-part conversation with Chief Ajmal Khan Zazai of Paktia province, Afghanistan. Let’s plunge right in.

SP: Chief Zazai, this summer you were elected to the paramountcy of eleven tribes in your home region in Paktia province along the border with Pakistan. Why did the tribes meet at this time? What was their agenda?

Chief Zazai: On July 17th, 2009, my 11 tribes, their Chiefs and Tribal elders gathered in the Zazi valley, where the US Army’s 10th Mountain Division is also based. The event was broadcast for three days by the TV channel “Shamasad” and was seen throughout Afghanistan. The tribes met to address the problems created by the escalation of the insurgency and of course the failure of the Karzai administration to bring a stable, uncorrupt and people-representing government to Afghanistan.

SP: Prior to this meeting, you had established a tribal police force. Can you tell us why you did this and what has happened since?

Chief Zazai: At the end of May 2009, the tribal council, after many meetings, created this force to protect the people of the valley and to provide security for the council members. Our Zazi force is constituted of 80 men, who are governed by the tribal council. They serve full-time; they are armed with their own weapons and commanded by my friend Amir Mohammed. Commander Amir fought against the Soviets in the 80s and has been the commander of the border police appointed by the interior minister. He is a brave commander and a man of his word.

On September 13, just a few days ago, I was having a dinner with my family when I received a phone call from Commander Amir, who informed me of an IED placed in the mosque where he and the Tribal Police were having a dinner. It was Ramadan and they had been fasting all day so they came together to break their fast. An explosive device went off, blowing up part of the mosque and injuring a few tribal police. Thank God somehow the main bomb did not go off. If it had, it could have killed 30 to 40 people easily. Just imagine if this bomb had gone off and killed this many people! Could I have been in the position to form another such group? No, never.

Site of the 11 Tribes' Meeting, Paktia province

SP: Who planted the bomb and why?

Chief Zazai: The reason the insurgents planted this bomb is that they are aware we are siding with the US.

SP: Your own father was assassinated, I understand, under orders from Mullah Omar. You yourself have survived two attempts on your life. Can you tell us about your father and what you and he are fighting for?

Chief Zazai: My father was Chief Raiss Afzal Khan Zazai; he was murdered in 2000. My father led our Zazi tribes in the fight against the Soviets and later he organized the Tribal Chiefs from three provinces (Paktia, Paktika & Khost) in order to upraise against the Taliban. Some ex-commanders were visiting him at our family home and there they carried out this heinous crime. I have not found who gave the orders yet but the motive behind this was to bring a full stop to this movement and also to frighten the rest.

My father was one of our country’s first industrialists. He and my uncle founded the first Afghan transport company, Mrastay Transport, using old British Bedford trucks. His company, Wazir Ltd, exported raisins, dried fruits and Afghan carpets to Russia, Germany and Britain, while importing vehicles, appliances and medicines.

My father believed that the tribes were the past and future of Afghanistan. Let me show you a letter he wrote before he was killed (and several years before 9/11) to our dear friend David Simpson in England, who had fought alongside my father against the Soviets and is writing a book about this and much more. I thank David for his kind permission to excerpt this.

Besides the full support of Pushtoon tribes, I’ve the full support of Tajik, Uzbek, Hazara and Turkmen Tribes. I successfully expanded the “Zazi Tribes Union” to national tribal union where all the major tribes in Afghanistan are included. The present situation in my country is very bad. People are suffering terribly under the unlawful regime of the Taliban … In 1995 I warned you of Taliban’s agenda towards extremism and [predicted] the present situation. I hate to say this but “I told you so.” Dear Dave, I need [the outside world's] support. My tribesmen are ready. Our Tribal main issue is to completely finish drugs and end the deep roots of terrorism.

SP: Is this your cause too, Chief Zazai?

Chief Zazai: Yes! The difficulty is in making people understand, people of America and the West. Afghanistan seems so complicated and confusing. It is complicated even to us! But, Steve, I tell you it is possible to bring together the tribes, which are the true power on the ground in Afghanistan and from there build a stable structure of governance. I said before that the gathering of the eleven Zazi tribes was broadcast for three days. A momentum is now circulating around Afghanistan for a tribal united front which could find a way forward. My team in Kabul and Zazi have been contacted by many Tribal chiefs who wish to join our efforts in uniting all the Afghan tribes.

Inside the tent: elders from the 11 tribes

SP: I want to talk more about issues that (you’re right) are confusing to non-Afghans: who’s who … the Taliban, the warlords, al-Qaeda, the insurgency. And about how your tribal union might work with the US military, what you’re doing, what the American responses have been, what’s possible. Are you game to keep going?

Chief Zazi: I will talk as long as you want, if we can get even a few people to listen.

[To be continued next Friday. Monday, we'll start serializing Special Forces Major Jim Gant's white paper, "One Tribe At A Time."]